Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Maureen E Mulvihill
Subject: For Posting: Irish Bodies (i.e., gait / walking style)
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Re: Irish Bodies Thread
(gait / walking style)

As silly (and unfair) as stereotypes tend to be, there's often a bit o'
truth buried away in most of 'em. Jack B. Yeats, e.g., was said to have a
distinctive sort of 'nautical' gait, a lurch-&-roll-forward propulsion (if
that's a near description) which must have been amusing to observe (well,
for some of us) -- and his gait was said to be typical of Sligo men. (I
wonder if James Brown knew about this.) Back to Jack. This walking style of
his is ment'd with some regularity in biographical accounts of JBY. Might we
hear from our IR-D Sligo associates on this matter?

Carmel McCaffrey, in my view, is correct when she cautions Bronwen Walter
about seeking out indigenous Irish characteristics. Ireland, by 2010, and
well before, is a mixed-race isle, so much so that it's now nearly
impossible to typecast most anyone there (under, say, 40?) as typifying an
'Irish' look (or gait). For my part, my roots are richly mixed, and the
genetic combination has served me well, on all fronts (I am grateful for
this!). Too much ethnic inbreeding wears down the stock (thins out the best
qualities), leading to genetic weaknesses (physical deficits). Old-style
Irish, aged 80 and beyond, may be willing to tell you that in many big Irish
families, where both lines are mostly Irish, there's often (sadly) one
'special' child.

Re yesterday's significant news: The Cameron statement on Bloody Sunday &
the Saville Inquiry Report was given page 1 coverage, in a report from
London filed by John F. Burns, in today's NY Times, along with a riveting &
large-format color photo; here's the digital version:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/16/world/europe/16nireland.html?th&emc=th

Bloomsday 2010, New York City ~
MEM


Maureen E. [Esther] Mulvihill, PhD
Scholar & Writer, Brooklyn, NY; Princeton, NJ
http://www.yeatssociety.org/JackYeats_Mulvihill.html
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/new_hibernia_review/summary/v006/6.4mulvihill.html
http://www.theflightoftheearls.net/SlaveryReview.pdf

____

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From: Carmel McCaffrey
Subject: Re: Irish bodies
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Ultan,
But the original question was about Irish actors surely - Irish people
"in English films". These are hardly farm workers with "a gimp" as you
call it. And anyway why would not English farm workers - or any other
nationality - have a similar gimp if working under the same
conditions? I grew up close to a number of acting families and never
noticed that anyone in the Dublin acting community had a special "gimp"
that might distinguish them from English actors. Never mind any other
distinguishing facial characteristics including hair colour[?] that
places the Irish apart.

I mentioned the ape and monkey comparison in jest but really, it sounds
awfully close to something genetically inherent in the Irish "race". I
still think it's thin ice! Very thin.

Carmel

On 6/16/2010 1:48 PM, Ultan Cowley wrote:
> Bronwen
>
> What your 1970's Luton Irish informants were probably referring to is a gait prevalent amongst previous generations of Irishmen from a farming background known as 'The Gimp'. I don't know the derivation of the term but it is/was characteristic of farm workers accustomed to picking their way across uneven surfaces such as ploughed fields, bog tussocks, and of course building sites.
>
> Any Irish industry veteran over forty would immediately recognise the term. It has no negative connotations other perhaps than identifying older migrant males as having spent a lifetime on the building industry at labourer level. No 'thin ice' to beware of there, really...
>
> Ultan
>
>
>
> .
>
>

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From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Saville Report - Comment
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Subject: Re: [IR-D] A 38-year wait for the truth
From: Muiris Mag Ualghairg
To: The Irish Diaspora Studies List

I'm surprised about the calls in some of the UK papers for inquiries
in to murders by Republicans as if they equate in the same way.
Murders by republicans have always been seen as murders, there has
never been a moral equivalence between the actions of the IRA (which
were always seen as murder and always attracted a full inquiry, in the
way of a trial and an inquest). No-one (within the state) ever
suggested that it was right to kill these victims or that they were
terrorists. In the case of those killed on Bloody Sunday, the
'troubles' hadn't really kicked off, they was no expectation of their
being violence of this sort and the state was the agent of death, not
a terrorist organisation.

I personally believe that there should be some kind of truth
commission within Northern Ireland but the attempts to equate the
killings of Bloody Sunday with the killings by the IRA as if it is
some kind of score card (they've had their enquiry so let us have
ours) rather than saying that all innocent people, regardless of who
killed them, should have had their deaths looked into and their
killers punished, strikes me as playing a terrible game with death.

M

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From: Steven Mccabe
Subject: Re: Saville Report - Comment
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Gerry Adams once used the quotation that no side has a monopoly on suffer=
ing. However, the truth commission is a good idea to deal with all of the=
unresolved questions. However, I fear that this will not be welcomed by =
those organisations that would claim to have who have the moral high grou=
nd (such as the British Government) and who, many believe, have been far =
more involved in events than they might have claimed in the past; Dublin =
and Monaghan bombings and murder of Pat Finucane to name just two. The ef=
fects of Saville will make them even more reluctant to engage in such a p=
rocess. Indeed, the last 24 hours have dredged up the old claims about ho=
w the IRA were responsible for "thousands of deaths", the Irish Governmen=
t acted as the "midwife" of the provisional IRA and so on. If nothing els=
e, let's hope that Saville is seen as watershed of integrity that can ass=
ist in assuaging concerns about relationships between the traditions in N=
orthern Ireland. Sadly, the effect so far seems to be that many old wound=
s have been re-opened. =20

Steven

-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Beh=
alf Of Patrick O'Sullivan
Sent: 16 June 2010 15:41
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: [IR-D] Saville Report - Comment

Subject: Re: [IR-D] A 38-year wait for the truth
From: Muiris Mag Ualghairg
To: The Irish Diaspora Studies List

I'm surprised about the calls in some of the UK papers for inquiries
in to murders by Republicans as if they equate in the same way.
Murders by republicans have always been seen as murders, there has
never been a moral equivalence between the actions of the IRA (which
were always seen as murder and always attracted a full inquiry, in the
way of a trial and an inquest). No-one (within the state) ever
suggested that it was right to kill these victims or that they were
terrorists. In the case of those killed on Bloody Sunday, the
'troubles' hadn't really kicked off, they was no expectation of their
being violence of this sort and the state was the agent of death, not
a terrorist organisation.

I personally believe that there should be some kind of truth
commission within Northern Ireland but the attempts to equate the
killings of Bloody Sunday with the killings by the IRA as if it is
some kind of score card (they've had their enquiry so let us have
ours) rather than saying that all innocent people, regardless of who
killed them, should have had their deaths looked into and their
killers punished, strikes me as playing a terrible game with death.

M


Through our significant contribution to the creative industries and the c=
ity's cultural and artistic life,=0ABirmingham City University is proud t=
o support Birmingham's bid to be UK City of Culture in 2013=0A=0Ahttp://b=
irminghamculture.org=0Ahttp://www.bcu.ac.uk/about-us/excellent-arts

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Liam Clarke
Subject: Re: Irish bodies
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In psychiatry we used to take it as read that 'the schizophrenic' was of
an asthenic (scrawny/hairy) build whilst the manic-depressive was
picknic (rotund) and the linkage between appearance and supposed
'madness' has a long and pessimistic history. =20


I remember boasting to my wife about 'the way we walk' business some
years back and getting a telling off for racism.

Its not necessarily that I don't think but you would need a randomised
style quantitative study to look in to it.


Liam (Clarke) =20

-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On
Behalf Of Carmel McCaffrey
Sent: 16 June 2010 15:59
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Irish bodies

Not sure what you are comparing "Irish" with "visually" - what standard=20
do you consider to be the norm against which you are making your=20
comparisons? Why don't you consult nineteenth century images? We were=20
usually depicted as apes and monkeys then. Frankly, I think you are on=20
thin ice on this one.

Carmel

On 6/16/2010 6:57 AM, Patrick O'Sullivan wrote:
> Thread-Topic: Irish bodies
> From: "Walter, Bronwen"
> To:
>
> Dear All
> =3D20
> I am just completing an article about the taken-for-grantedness of
Irish
> people in English films, and thinking about ways in which they may be
> recognised visually. In addition to hair and eye colour I want to say
> something about distinctive ways of walking. I remember talking to
Irish =3D
> men
> in Luton in the 1970s who told me they could always identify men from
=3D
> the
> West of Ireland by the way they walked. Does anyone have any more =3D
> detailed
> observations about this?
> =3D20
> Thanks very much
> =3D20
> Bronwen Walter
> =3D
>
> .
>
> =20

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "Thomas J. Archdeacon"
Subject: Re: For Posting: Irish Bodies (i.e., gait / walking style)
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The reference to Ireland as a "mixed-race isle" is interesting but lacking
in context. Progressive thinking now plays down the existence of concepts
such as racial or ethnic purity, and I have no desire to rehabilitate those
ideas. Do we, however, have any metric on how genetically mixed various
societies are? If we do, where does Ireland rank according to it?

Tom

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Maureen E Mulvihill
Subject: Irish Bodies (inter-ethnic breeding)
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Irish Bodies Thread
Inter-Ethnic Breeding
Bloomsday 2010, NYC.
__________________


Further to inter-ethnic inbreeding (an engaging subject):

The medical people in my family often refer to this longheld practice of=20
Irish marrying Irish, Jews marrying Jews, etc. as eventually leading to=20
mental retardation in the offspring (cultural / ethnic variety being the=20
preferred, wiser course); that is what I had in mind by 'special' childre=
n,=20
in addition to other serious conditions mentd by Noreen Bowden, for whose=
=20
information we are grateful -- and to which we must add alcoholism among =
the=20
Irish and birth defects. The predictable analogue in agricultural practic=
e=20
comes to mind: Farmers, with a view to profit & stable crop production, k=
now=20
to rotate the crop; they also avoid reliance on the same variety, decade=20
upon decade. The Irish would have fared much better during the Great Hung=
er=20
(an Gorta M=F3r) had they practiced more crop rotation and crop variety, =
and=20
avoided the monoculture of the lumper potato variety (their predominant=20
potato); likewise, interethnic breeding, generation upon generation. Ther=
e's=20
a large body of literature on this subject, from Mendel onward.

But, granted, this is a sensitive subject for the Irish, understandably s=
o,=20
as any ethnic group strives to maintain its own identity through marriage=
=20
within its own stock; but over time, this practice introduces serious bir=
th=20
defects: most sadly, mental retardation. Ol' Joe Kennedy (an accessible=20
model of Irish clan patriarch) hailed from a line of Irish breeders &=20
inter-ethnic marriages; and he is on the record on this subject in a lett=
er=20
he wrote to one of his nine children, mentioning the case of his retarded=
=20
daughter Kathleen and the inherent problems of marrying 'one's own'. (Man=
y=20
of his offspring did not marry Irish.) So, a big, sensitive subject here,=
=20
one meriting reassessment every few decades.

MEM
Dr Mulvihill; Brooklyn & Princeton
____________________________

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From: Ultan Cowley
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Bronwen

What your 1970's Luton Irish informants were probably referring to is a gait prevalent amongst previous generations of Irishmen from a farming background known as 'The Gimp'. I don't know the derivation of the term but it is/was characteristic of farm workers accustomed to picking their way across uneven surfaces such as ploughed fields, bog tussocks, and of course building sites.

Any Irish industry veteran over forty would immediately recognise the term. It has no negative connotations other perhaps than identifying older migrant males as having spent a lifetime on the building industry at labourer level. No 'thin ice' to beware of there, really...

Ultan

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Noreen Bowden
Subject: Re: For Posting: Irish Bodies (i.e., gait / walking style)
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These are such interesting questions! But if I may urge us to be =
cautious in our biology - the problem with closely related people having =
children is that genetic problems that are carried as recessive traits =
have a higher chance of being passed on if they run in that family. =
Consanguinity doesn't cause these disorders in itself; it merely =
increases the chances of the transmission of these recessive traits into =
the next generation.=20

If by 'special' child we mean a child with Down Syndrome, I can confirm =
that it is still the case that Ireland has a higher proportion of =
children with Down Syndrome than other developed countries, but this is =
related to higher maternal age in Ireland and the fact that =
amniocentesis and abortion are not standard procedures in Ireland. The =
research on whether consanguinity is linked to Down Syndrome seems =
inconclusive from my admittedly cursory internet search, but I have =
never heard it discussed as a factor in Ireland.

I'm not sure if there's any reason to fear "ethnic inbreeding" - no =
doubt the island has been fairly genetically diverse for centuries after =
all sorts of inward and internal migrations. It is true that a high =
proportion of Irish people carry the gene mutation for cystic fibrosis, =
however, so there is some advantage in diverse parentage, but I don't =
think there's any reason to believe that of less mixed ancestral stock =
are at any general kind of genetic disadvantage.

Regards,
Noreen

Noreen Bowden
http://www.globalirish.ie



On 16 Jun 2010, at 18:46, Maureen E Mulvihill wrote:

> Re: Irish Bodies Thread
> (gait / walking style)
>=20
> As silly (and unfair) as stereotypes tend to be, there's often a bit =
o' truth buried away in most of 'em. Jack B. Yeats, e.g., was said to =
have a distinctive sort of 'nautical' gait, a lurch-&-roll-forward =
propulsion (if that's a near description) which must have been amusing =
to observe (well, for some of us) -- and his gait was said to be typical =
of Sligo men. (I wonder if James Brown knew about this.) Back to Jack. =
This walking style of his is ment'd with some regularity in biographical =
accounts of JBY. Might we hear from our IR-D Sligo associates on this =
matter?
>=20
> Carmel McCaffrey, in my view, is correct when she cautions Bronwen =
Walter about seeking out indigenous Irish characteristics. Ireland, by =
2010, and well before, is a mixed-race isle, so much so that it's now =
nearly impossible to typecast most anyone there (under, say, 40?) as =
typifying an 'Irish' look (or gait). For my part, my roots are richly =
mixed, and the genetic combination has served me well, on all fronts (I =
am grateful for this!). Too much ethnic inbreeding wears down the stock =
(thins out the best qualities), leading to genetic weaknesses (physical =
deficits). Old-style Irish, aged 80 and beyond, may be willing to tell =
you that in many big Irish families, where both lines are mostly Irish, =
there's often (sadly) one 'special' child.
>=20
> Re yesterday's significant news: The Cameron statement on Bloody =
Sunday & the Saville Inquiry Report was given page 1 coverage, in a =
report from London filed by John F. Burns, in today's NY Times, along =
with a riveting & large-format color photo; here's the digital version:
> =
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/16/world/europe/16nireland.html?th&emc=3Dth=

>=20
> Bloomsday 2010, New York City ~
> MEM
>=20
>=20
> Maureen E. [Esther] Mulvihill, PhD
> Scholar & Writer, Brooklyn, NY; Princeton, NJ
> http://www.yeatssociety.org/JackYeats_Mulvihill.html
> =
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/new_hibernia_review/summary/v006/6.4mulvihill=
.html
> http://www.theflightoftheearls.net/SlaveryReview.pdf
>=20
> ____

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Muiris Mag Ualghairg
Subject: Re: For Posting: Irish Bodies (i.e., gait / walking style)
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On 16 June 2010 18:46, Maureen E Mulvihill wrote:
> Re: Irish Bodies Thread
> (gait / walking style)
>
> As silly (and unfair) as stereotypes tend to be, there's often a bit o'
> truth buried away in most of 'em. Jack B. Yeats, e.g., was said to have a
> distinctive sort of 'nautical' gait, a lurch-&-roll-forward propulsion (if
> that's a near description) which must have been amusing to observe (well,
> for some of us) -- and his gait was said to be typical of Sligo men. (I
> wonder if James Brown knew about this.) Back to Jack. This walking style of
> his is ment'd with some regularity in biographical accounts of JBY. Might we
> hear from our IR-D Sligo associates on this matter?

I don't know about Sligo men but my father (Donegal) had such a gait
as do my father's two brothers. Neither I nor my brothers have it, nor
does any of my paternal cousins born outside of Ireland. My father was
also famous for being able to walk very fast where as we, his
children, seem to walk at a much slower rate. I realised, when I was
in my teens and into hiking, that my father's and uncle's walk was
actually very good for walking over rough mountainside land, something
which I found and still find very hard, his walking speed also seems
to have been a reaction to the lack of motorised transport when he was
young (and having stayed out on the family farm in Donegal and had to
walk into Donegal town a lot of times to have a night out I could well
understand how one would learn to walk fast!)


" Ireland, by 2010, and
> well before, is a mixed-race isle, so much so that it's now nearly
> impossible to typecast most anyone there (under, say, 40?) as typifying an
> 'Irish' look (or gait)."

Really if we are talking about someone, say 40? then we would need to
have had a very mixed population 65 years ago (if you are in your 40s
then your parent would probably have been born about 20 - 40 years
before your own birth) that means, in reality, that we are talking
about a much more diverse population 65 to 85 years ago? I honestly
don't think that I have heard of an influx of migrants into Ireland in
that time frame, and indeed if we accept that most people of say 80
had a 'special' child in the family that would mean that the
immigrants had to have started to moved in during that generation or
even in the one prior to it in order to actually marry in with the 80
year old generation so that their children didn't have a 'special
child' (as they people in that age frame are the parents of today's
40-50 years olds). This just doesn't stack up, I don't think that
Ireland had such an influx of genetic diversity at the time.

Perhaps it would be better to look at the ages at which people had
children, we all know that the older the parents the more likely it is
that a child will be born with a genetic illness, such as downs etc.
My wife and I had our children late (my wife was 43) and we were told
that the chances of us having a child with Downs syndrome was
extremely high due to my wife's age - we accepted that fact as a fact
of our ages and still had our son (who doesn't have Downs and is a
wonderfully lively boy whose first language is Welsh but is proud to
be Welsh and Irish and who has an Irish name). My point is that we
know that Irish people tended to marry later, they had large families
and often had children in to the 40s which means that the chances of
having a 'special' child were higher. This is nothing to do with
genetics or 'inbreeding' but rather to do with age and it doesn't
matter whence one's ancestor when one gets that old!

Muiris

(both of whose lines are Irish and whose families didn't have a
'special child' as far as I know and I've studied our family history,
including some surprising facts and have most of my family lines and
scandals back to the 1700s).



For my part, my roots are richly mixed, and the
> genetic combination has served me well, on all fronts (I am grateful for
> this!). Too much ethnic inbreeding wears down the stock (thins out the best
> qualities), leading to genetic weaknesses (physical deficits). Old-style
> Irish, aged 80 and beyond, may be willing to tell you that in many big Irish
> families, where both lines are mostly Irish, there's often (sadly) one
> 'special' child.
>
> Re yesterday's significant news: The Cameron statement on Bloody Sunday &
> the Saville Inquiry Report was given page 1 coverage, in a report from
> London filed by John F. Burns, in today's NY Times, along with a riveting &
> large-format color photo; here's the digital version:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/16/world/europe/16nireland.html?th&emc=th
>
> Bloomsday 2010, New York City ~
> MEM
>
>
> Maureen E. [Esther] Mulvihill, PhD
> Scholar & Writer, Brooklyn, NY; Princeton, NJ
> http://www.yeatssociety.org/JackYeats_Mulvihill.html
> http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/new_hibernia_review/summary/v006/6.4mulvihill.html
> http://www.theflightoftheearls.net/SlaveryReview.pdf
>
> ____
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: CFP Symposium, Roger Casement- Rubber,
the Amazon and the Atlantic World 1870-1914
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University of the Amazon

INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM
Rubber, the Amazon and the Atlantic World 1870-1914
ROGER CASEMENT

23 =96 24 August 2010
Federal University of the Amazon, Brazil

Submission of papers: 10 July 2010
=A0

An international interdisciplinary symposium in Manaus in August 2010.
Taking as its focus the Amazon voyage of Roger Casement, into the Upper
Amazon in 1910, the conference organizers welcome papers that consider
trans-Atlantic relations, borders, diasporas, modernity, indigenous =
rights,
the history of the rubber boom and travel writing in the geographical
dimension of the Amazon.

The following speakers have already agreed to deliver keynote addresses:
Angus Mitchell (Irish historian), Jordan Goodman (University College
London), Juan Alvaro Echeverri (University of Colombia), Waldir Freitas
Oliveira (Federal University of Bahia) Maureen Murphy (Hofstra =
University,
NY), Aur=E9lio Michiles (Brazilian film-maker) and Milton Hatoum =
(Brazilian
writer).

e-mail: abeibrasil[at]yahoo.com.br
www.freewebs.com/irishstudies
=A0
Registration Fee can be paid on the first day. If you wish to attend =
the
symposium without presenting a paper, please register by 10 August 2010. =


Organisers:=20
Laura P.Z. Izarra (USP/W.B.Yeats Chair of Irish Studies/ABEI), Angus
Mitchell (Historian) and Luiz Bitton Telles da Rocha (UFAM)
=A0
=A0

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Subject: medical reason
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For the historical record=2C Rosemary Kennedy=2C not Kathleen=2C was denied=
oxygen at birth hence she was intellectually challenged=2C the condition w=
as not related to genetics. The family was awaiting a medical practitioner=
=2C instead of going ahead with the birth=2C they delayed.
=20
> Date: Wed=2C 16 Jun 2010 18:21:02 -0400
> From: mulvihill[at]NYC.RR.COM
> Subject: [IR-D] Irish Bodies (inter-ethnic breeding)
> To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
>=20
> Irish Bodies Thread
> Inter-Ethnic Breeding
> Bloomsday 2010=2C NYC.
> __________________
>=20
>=20
> Further to inter-ethnic inbreeding (an engaging subject):
>=20
> The medical people in my family often refer to this longheld practice of=
=20
> Irish marrying Irish=2C Jews marrying Jews=2C etc. as eventually leading =
to=20
> mental retardation in the offspring (cultural / ethnic variety being the=
=20
> preferred=2C wiser course)=3B that is what I had in mind by 'special' chi=
ldren=2C=20
> in addition to other serious conditions mentd by Noreen Bowden=2C for who=
se=20
> information we are grateful -- and to which we must add alcoholism among =
the=20
> Irish and birth defects. The predictable analogue in agricultural practic=
e=20
> comes to mind: Farmers=2C with a view to profit & stable crop production=
=2C know=20
> to rotate the crop=3B they also avoid reliance on the same variety=2C dec=
ade=20
> upon decade. The Irish would have fared much better during the Great Hung=
er=20
> (an Gorta M=F3r) had they practiced more crop rotation and crop variety=
=2C and=20
> avoided the monoculture of the lumper potato variety (their predominant=20
> potato)=3B likewise=2C interethnic breeding=2C generation upon generation=
. There's=20
> a large body of literature on this subject=2C from Mendel onward.
>=20
> But=2C granted=2C this is a sensitive subject for the Irish=2C understand=
ably so=2C=20
> as any ethnic group strives to maintain its own identity through marriage=
=20
> within its own stock=3B but over time=2C this practice introduces serious=
birth=20
> defects: most sadly=2C mental retardation. Ol' Joe Kennedy (an accessible=
=20
> model of Irish clan patriarch) hailed from a line of Irish breeders &=20
> inter-ethnic marriages=3B and he is on the record on this subject in a le=
tter=20
> he wrote to one of his nine children=2C mentioning the case of his retard=
ed=20
> daughter Kathleen and the inherent problems of marrying 'one's own'. (Man=
y=20
> of his offspring did not marry Irish.) So=2C a big=2C sensitive subject h=
ere=2C=20
> one meriting reassessment every few decades.
>=20
> MEM
> Dr Mulvihill=3B Brooklyn & Princeton
> ____________________________
=20
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Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Anthony Murray
Subject: Irish Bodies
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Bronwen has touched on an intriguing, if controversial topic.
Notwithstanding the caveats made by list-members about the dangers of
stereotyping, with which I fully agree, I would concur to some degree wit=
h
Ultan=92s comments on this. I recall that certain Irish men I saw in 1960=
s
on the streets around Camden Town/Holloway (where I grew up) used to walk
with a very distinctive gait - slightly hunched, hands in their trouser
pockets with the suggestion that they were 'stepping up' the pavement
rather than simply walking along it. I too heard that the gait was the
result of men from the rural west of Ireland being used to walking over
hilly or uneven ground. This strikes me as a reasonable explanation -
although it begs the question - was this something common to all
agricultural labourers? Has there been any research on this outside of a
specifically Irish context? I also wonder to what extent the gait was
self-conscious or affected and may, therefore, have been a means by which
some Irish navvies displayed a collective sense of migrant identity.

Tony Murray












Companies Act 2006 : http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/companyinfo

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Brian Lambkin
Subject: Re: Irish bodies
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Is 'gait' occupation-related? I have heard it said in Donegal that older
hill-farmers may be easily recognised in town by their 'rolling' gait,
attributed to the habitual wearing of wellington or water boots on rough
upland ground.
Brian
>>=20
>> Dear All
>> =3D20
>> I am just completing an article about the taken-for-grantedness of
Irish
>> people in English films, and thinking about ways in which they may be
>> recognised visually. In addition to hair and eye colour I want to say
>> something about distinctive ways of walking. I remember talking to
Irish =3D
>> men
>> in Luton in the 1970s who told me they could always identify men from
=3D
>> the
>> West of Ireland by the way they walked. Does anyone have any more =3D
>> detailed
>> observations about this?
>> =3D20
>> Thanks very much
>> =3D20
>> Bronwen Walter
>> =3D
>>=20
>> .
>>=20
>> =20

Brian Lambkin
Director of Centre for Migration Studies
at the Ulster American Folk Park
2 Mellon Road
Castletown
Omagh
BT78 5QU
T - 028 8225 6318 (direct)
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Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "Thomas J. Archdeacon"
Subject: Semi-idle thoughts on the Irish Gait
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Let's see what we have so far on the topic Bronwen daringly raised.

1. Universal acknowledgement of the dangers of stereotypes and slippery
slopes.

2. Several anecdotes (e.g., Bowden, Cowley, Mag Ualghairg, Maguire,
Archdeacon) about beliefs among the Irish about an "Irish gait")

3. Speculation about potential causes of gait (occupation, genetics). [Can
imitation within groups create "cultural" styles of walking?]

4. Doubts that gaits, especially if occupationally caused, are exclusively
characteristic of one ethnic group.

5. Questions about the extent to which directors/actors sought to portray
Irishness through gaits and other subtle markers. I think Ultan came closest
to confirming a case of an actor (his father) consciously incorporating the
walk in a role.


Where should Bronwen go from here?

I can a imagine a situation in which 1. a movie employed various Irish
people as minor actors (e.g., extras]; 2. those actors had "Irish gaits";
and 3. the gaits signaled the presence of Irish in the film without
conscious intent on the part of the director. Would that reinforce or
undermine Bronwen's thesis? I'm still not sure of her exact focus.

Tom

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From: Ultan Cowley
Subject: Irish Bodies
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Carmel

I guess one would have to focus on specific films and the 'Irish' characters' supposed occupations to clarify the issues a bit more. We expect a good actor to accurately portray the gait of a sailor or cowboy as 'rolling'; why not portray an Irishman from a rural/farming background via the 'gimp' if the time-frame of the story justifies this?

My own father, John Cowley, was an actor who ran away from a small farm outside Navan at age twenty to join a touring repertory company but, ironically, became a household name years later portraying the titular farmer 'Tom Riordan' in RTE's rural soap, The Riordans for almost fifteen years. I think in fact he affected the 'gimp' from time to time where the character's actions called for it. He certainly considered it characteristic of people such as I described in my previous posting.

Ultan

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From: Patrick O'Sullivan
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Subject: RE: [IR-D] Irish bodies

From:
W.F.Clarke[at]bton.ac.uk

Date:
Thu, 17 Jun 2010 12:16:41 +0100


I remember someone referring to Gerry Fitt's 'rolling gait' apparently due
to his having been a merchant seaman


Liam (Clarke)

-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf
Of Brian Lambkin
Sent: 17 June 2010 10:31
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Irish bodies

Is 'gait' occupation-related? I have heard it said in Donegal that older
hill-farmers may be easily recognised in town by their 'rolling' gait,
attributed to the habitual wearing of wellington or water boots on rough
upland ground.
Brian
>>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Noreen Bowden
Subject: Re: Irish Bodies
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This all reminds me of a childhood experience - as a kid in suburban NY, =
I was once sitting in a supermarket parking lot with my Kilkenny-born =
father. He exclaimed, "There's an Irishman there", and my sister and I =
asked if he knew him.=20

He said no, "but with a walk like that he couldn't be from anywhere =
else", whereupon my dad left the car and bounded across the parking lot =
to greet his fellow countryman.=20

He returned a few minutes later after a chat with the walker and =
somewhat sheepishly admitted he'd been mistaken, and the man hadn't been =
Irish at all.=20

Hadn't thought of that experience in many years, but my father was =
clearly under the impression you could tell an Irishman by his gait - =
even if it turned out to be an fallible measure!







On 17 Jun 2010, at 10:24, Anthony Murray wrote:

> Bronwen has touched on an intriguing, if controversial topic.
> Notwithstanding the caveats made by list-members about the dangers of
> stereotyping, with which I fully agree, I would concur to some degree =
with
> Ultan=92s comments on this. I recall that certain Irish men I saw in =
1960s
> on the streets around Camden Town/Holloway (where I grew up) used to =
walk
> with a very distinctive gait - slightly hunched, hands in their =
trouser
> pockets with the suggestion that they were 'stepping up' the pavement
> rather than simply walking along it. I too heard that the gait was the
> result of men from the rural west of Ireland being used to walking =
over
> hilly or uneven ground. This strikes me as a reasonable explanation -
> although it begs the question - was this something common to all
> agricultural labourers? Has there been any research on this outside of =
a
> specifically Irish context? I also wonder to what extent the gait was
> self-conscious or affected and may, therefore, have been a means by =
which
> some Irish navvies displayed a collective sense of migrant identity.
>=20
> Tony Murray
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Companies Act 2006 : http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/companyinfo

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Maureen E Mulvihill
Subject: Irish Bodies (medical thread)
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Irish Bodies Thread
(medical reasons)
17 June 2010
___________

Interesting postings, esp information on the (nautical or seaman's) rolling
gait, which evidently Jack Yeats, whom I ment'd., had picked up during his
many years in Sligo, while under the care of his doting (maternal)
grandfather. Back to mental retardation and Irish inbreeding: Ol' Joe
Kennedy and his clan were wizards of spin and cover up. His mantra, "It's
not what's true: it's what people think is true", is long established in
Kennedy lore. The family history is not entirely noble & unblemished,
including Joe's personal trackrecord. The public, documentable reason for
the mental retardation of Rosemary Kennedy (yes, this is Rosemary, of
course -- my slip -- not the captivating Kathleen 'Kick' Kennedy) is the
familiar reason conventionally given during those years: the obstetrician
arrived just a bit too late for the birthing & the infant was deprived vital
oxygen (thus, the "slight birth disorder", acc to Carmel McCaffrey's
informative post). This is how families publicly explained the shame of
'special' children -- not always, but often enough -- and this (i.e., the
dramatic fact of Rosemary's condition) is exactly why Joe Kennedy quietly
urged his children to 'look around' and not feel compelled to seek out Irish
spouses, as if it were a family or ethnic mandate to marry 'within the
blood' (many of his offspring evidently took his advice). Rosemary Kennedy's
case, esp as she approached puberty, was well beyond "mood swings", as
ment'd., tho' this symptom is routinely acknowledged in the usual sources.
Her delight in parties, dancing, and such were also accompanied by bouts of
wild behavior. Yes, she naturally enjoyed social events & family gatherings,
where she was always protectively watched, but could she draw up a
shopping-list, make change, play touch-football at the Kennedy compound with
her competitive siblings, use the local library's card-catalogue system?
Sadly, no. Her life skills had not developed. In televised documentaries on
the Kennedy saga, Rosemary's mother Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy is valuably on
camera, speaking of her daughter's delayed development as a toddler and
young girl; e.g., her inability to 'keep up' with her boisterous and
talented siblings, making her condition all the more obvious. Thus, Joe
Kennedy felt pressed to seek out the new (experimental) procedure of
lobotomy. Ironically, this was a tragically bad decision by an astute
decision-maker and manager in other demanding fields of human endeavor.
After the bungled lobotomy, Rosemary, then in her 20s, spent the rest of her
years in a private centre for 'special' cases in Wisconsin, administered by
nuns. Had her condition been marginal, the father would not have ordered the
new procedure, with all its risks (risks, indeed). But I believe that the
chief risk in this particular illustration from the clan Kennedy, and many
others too easy to mention, is generations of ethnic inbreeding. Most of the
time, the Irish will have their famous luck, but eventually the fatigued
Irish lines suffer from generations of genetic overload & inbreeding,
resulting in genetic damage (abnormalities); it's basic, textbook Mendel.
Cultural & genetic variety, that's the shot. 'Tis Nature's way, and there's
no fighting with her. MEM

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=rosemary+kennedy+lobotomy+pictures&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=rkcaTLaaNYL6lweg5diGCw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQsAQwAA

_____

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "Dr. Brenda Murphy"
Subject: Re: Irish Bodies
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Bronwen has us all talking this morning.

While we all acknowledge the danger of stereotyping, it is essential to =
interrogate media texts and examine how they are representing =
gender/nation/race/ etc ...
And if, as Bronwen seems to be exploring, the media have been =
reproducing 'essentialist' versions of 'irishness' through visual =
coding, then all the comments today have been hugely thought provoking.

It prompted me to phone my chiropractor this morning and ask her if =
there were particular gaits there were genetic - as I once recalled her =
commenting that here in Malta she sees many 'foot pronations' (a =
rotation of the foot when walking, which produces a particular gait).

When I briefed her on our e-disucssion she told me that although there =
is little research on the subject, she does think that different genetic =
pools seem to have 'gait' differences.=20

For example in Malta there is a high incidence of foot pronation, =
whereas in Scotland she used to see a lot of subpronation's and these =
would both be genetic.

She suggested that a 'high stepping gait' could result from a lower back =
injury which agricultural workers or other manual worklers could =
possibly display.=20
Similarly, a gait called 'foot drop' could also be the result of lower =
back damage, slightly higher up the spine.

Additionally, she recalled american films depicting Irish men, who had =
what she called a 'side sway', and this would be due to trendelenburg =
gait - which would be due to hip problems and these could be genetic.=20
One would need to look at hip replacement data and see if Ireland has a =
higher incidence.=20

Furthermore, it would useful, from a medical and genetic perspective, to =
see if some Irish men are genetically marked by a particular gait - and =
even more interesting, to explore how and why the media have selected =
such very particular images, and reproduced them with particular =
ideological markings.

I look forward to reading the finished article Bronwen.

regards
Brenda




On 17 Jun 2010, at 11:24 am, Anthony Murray wrote:

> Bronwen has touched on an intriguing, if controversial topic.
> Notwithstanding the caveats made by list-members about the dangers of
> stereotyping, with which I fully agree, I would concur to some degree =
with
> Ultan=92s comments on this. I recall that certain Irish men I saw in =
1960s
> on the streets around Camden Town/Holloway (where I grew up) used to =
walk
> with a very distinctive gait - slightly hunched, hands in their =
trouser
> pockets with the suggestion that they were 'stepping up' the pavement
> rather than simply walking along it. I too heard that the gait was the
> result of men from the rural west of Ireland being used to walking =
over
> hilly or uneven ground. This strikes me as a reasonable explanation -
> although it begs the question - was this something common to all
> agricultural labourers? Has there been any research on this outside of =
a
> specifically Irish context? I also wonder to what extent the gait was
> self-conscious or affected and may, therefore, have been a means by =
which
> some Irish navvies displayed a collective sense of migrant identity.
>=20
> Tony Murray
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Companies Act 2006 : http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/companyinfo
>=20



=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
Dr Brenda Murphy - Senior Lecturer/Acting Director
Room 211, Lecture Centre, University of Malta, Msida, Malta MSD2080 Tel: =
++356 23402420 Fax: ++356 21323981
=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---

The Edward de Bono Institute for the Design and Development of Thinking. =
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2. International MSc. in Strategic Innovation and Future Creation - =
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