Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "Thomas J. Archdeacon"
Subject: Re: Conscription in Ireland
In-Reply-To:
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
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I imagine that Patrick Maume has astutely read the likely reasons for =
early
ordination in 1918. Just to toss in another possibility, although it =
may be
remote, might the clerical authorities have been thinking that, if
conscription took effect and was effectively executed, a cadre of =
chaplains
might be necessary?

Tom

-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On =
Behalf
Of Patrick Maume
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:58 PM
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Conscription in Ireland

from; Patrick Maume
One detail that might or might not be worth following up is that the =
1918
Maynooth ordination class were ordained some months earlier than normal
because of the conscription crisis. I can think of three possible
explanations, not mutually incompatible 91) ordained priests may have =
been
exempt from conscription whereas clerical students were not (I am not =
sure
if this was actually the case0 (b) if they were conscripted before =
finishing
their studiees and being ordained they might face difficulties in =
resuming
them afterwards (3) they might evade conscription more easily if =
ordained
and sent back to their home districts than if they were all together in =
the
seminary.
Best wishes,
Patrick

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Matthew Barlow
wrote:

> ah, funny you should respond to this, i was just about to ask you for =
that
> chapter, though i think i may actually have it somewhere on my =
macbook.
> hope all is well.
> cheers,
> m.
>
>
> On Tuesday, April 06, 2010, at 09:23AM, "Simon Jolivet" seamus78[at]HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >Hi Matthew,
> >Some of these sources might contain some interesting bits on =
conscription
> in Ireland, especially Traver's:
> >
> >- Fitzpatrick, David, Politics and Irish Life,
> >1913-1921, (Cork, 1998), 324 p.
> >
> >
> >
> >- Horne, John, ed. Our War. Ireland and the Great War, (Dublin,
> >2008), 319 p.
> >
> >
> >
> >- Laffan, Michael, The Partition of Ireland 1911-1925 (Dundalk,
> >Dundalgan Press, 1983), 138
> >p.
> >
> >
> >
> >- Travers, Pauric, =ABThe Priest in Politics: the Case
> >of Conscription=BB, in Oliver MacDonagh, W.F. Mandle et Pauric =
Travers,
> eds., Irish Culture and Nationalism, 1750-1950,
> >(Basingstoke, The Basingstoke Press, 1983), p. 161-81.
> >
> >
> >
> >- Ward, Alan J, =ABLloyd
> >George and the 1918 Irish Conscription Crisis=BB, The Historical =
Journal,
> vol. XVII (1974), p. 107-29.
> >
> >
> >There's also a chapter devoted to the Qu=E9bec and Irish
> >crises of 1917-1918 in the following thesis ;)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >- S. Jolivet, =ABLes deux
> >questions irlandaises du Qu=E9bec, 1898-1921 : des consid=E9rations
> >canadiennes-fran=E7aises et irlando-catholiques=BB, th=E8se de =
doctorat,
> Universit=E9 Concordia
> >(Montr=E9al, 2008), 397 p.
> >
> >
> >Best,
> >
> >Simon
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 11:46:56 -0400
> >> From: matthew.barlow[at]MAC.COM
> >> Subject: [IR-D] Conscription in Ireland
> >> To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> >>
> >> > Hi,
> >> > I have a student who is interested in writing a paper comparing =
the
> experiences of Qu=E9bec and Ireland surrounding conscription in World =
War I.
> While there is plenty of work on this in the Qu=E9bec context, I am
> unfamiliar with the Irish sources, and he has been unable to find much
> himself in the Irish historiography; most of what he's found has been =
from
> English sources dealing Lloyd George's gambit, tying conscription to =
Home
> Rule. Does anyone have any suggestions?
> >> > Many thanks,
> >> > Matthew Barlow
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Messenger sur votre t=E9l=E9phone =3D MI sur la route
> >http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9724474
> >
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Re: Irish Pirates
In-Reply-To:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID:

Thinking that I ought to consider the possibility that David Rose had =
erred
- What? No! What? - I listened to the John Le Carr=E9 reading on the =
BBC web
site. Was Le Carr=E9 maybe trying an English West Country or Bristol =
accent,
with the rolled RRRs - in the manner of actor Robert Newton's defining
performance? But it is an Irish accent that Le Carr=E9 is offering - I
suppose it does help distinguish the character in sound, and it does =
suit
Silver's rollicking way of speaking.

The words Irish and Ireland are not in the text of Treasure Island, and
Silver is always presented as an Englishman - whether in his cover =
story,
served under Admiral Hawke, or his back story, Flint's quartermaster.

P.O'S.

-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On =
Behalf
Of kdejong01
Sent: 12 April 2010 13:22
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Irish Pirates

Hello David,

As someone who is looking at the Irish in Jamaica in the 17th Century I =
have
to say that this is probably very unlikely. Few Irish (as I found) =
joined
the bands of privateers, preferring to settle instead as small planters =
or
work in service (either though indenture or paid). Those who took to the
seas preferred the supply trade of bulk foods and cloths. The fictional
character of the 'stereotypical pirate' Long John Silver was probably =
more
based on those seafaring English coming from ports like Bristol, then =
from
Cork or Kinsale.

Karst=20
________________________________________
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [IR-D[at]jiscmail.ac.uk] On Behalf Of =
THE
OSCHOLARS [oscholars[at]gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:31 PM
To: IR-D[at]jiscmail.ac.uk
Subject: [IR-D] Irish Pirates

Has anyone ever suggested that Long John Silver was Irish ? John Le =
Carr=E9
makes him so in reading Treasure Island on BBC Radio 4.

David
www.oscholars.com

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "Walter, Bronwen"
Subject: Re: Irish Pirates
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID:

Dear David

I was also surprised to hear the Irish accent this week. Perhaps you =
should
write to John le Carre and ask why he did this. People do reply =
sometimes,
and we would like to know!

All the best

Bronwen




Professor Bronwen Walter
Humanities and Social Studies Department
Anglia Ruskin University
East Road
Cambridge
CB1 1PT

tel: 01223 363271 ex 2179

=20
-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On =
Behalf
Of Patrick O'Sullivan
Sent: 12 April 2010 16:01
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Irish Pirates

Thinking that I ought to consider the possibility that David Rose had =
erred
- What? No! What? - I listened to the John Le Carr=E9 reading on the =
BBC web
site. Was Le Carr=E9 maybe trying an English West Country or Bristol =
accent,
with the rolled RRRs - in the manner of actor Robert Newton's defining
performance? But it is an Irish accent that Le Carr=E9 is offering - I =
suppose
it does help distinguish the character in sound, and it does suit =
Silver's
rollicking way of speaking.

The words Irish and Ireland are not in the text of Treasure Island, and
Silver is always presented as an Englishman - whether in his cover =
story,
served under Admiral Hawke, or his back story, Flint's quartermaster.

P.O'S.

-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On =
Behalf
Of kdejong01
Sent: 12 April 2010 13:22
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Irish Pirates

Hello David,

As someone who is looking at the Irish in Jamaica in the 17th Century I =
have
to say that this is probably very unlikely. Few Irish (as I found) =
joined the
bands of privateers, preferring to settle instead as small planters or =
work
in service (either though indenture or paid). Those who took to the seas
preferred the supply trade of bulk foods and cloths. The fictional =
character
of the 'stereotypical pirate' Long John Silver was probably more based =
on
those seafaring English coming from ports like Bristol, then from Cork =
or
Kinsale.

Karst
________________________________________
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [IR-D[at]jiscmail.ac.uk] On Behalf Of =
THE
OSCHOLARS [oscholars[at]gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:31 PM
To: IR-D[at]jiscmail.ac.uk
Subject: [IR-D] Irish Pirates

Has anyone ever suggested that Long John Silver was Irish ? John Le =
Carr=E9
makes him so in reading Treasure Island on BBC Radio 4.

David
www.oscholars.com
--
Email has been scanned for viruses by Altman Technologies' email =
management
service - www.altman.co.uk/emailsystems
=
--=20=0D=0AEMERGING EXCELLENCE: In the Research Assessment Exercise (RA=
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ed 'World-leading' are Allied Health Professions & Studies; Art & Desig=
n; English Language & Literature; Geography & Environmental Studies; Hi=
story; Music; Psychology; and Social Work & Social Policy & Administrat=
ion. Visit www.anglia.ac.uk/rae for more information.=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=
=0D=0AThis e-mail and any attachments are intended for the above named=0D=
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=0Aerror you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or sh=
ow=0D=0Athem to anyone please reply to this e-mail to highlight the err=
or and=0D=0Athen immediately delete the e-mail from your system.=0D=0A=20=
=0D=0AAny opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not=0D=
=0Anecessarily represent the views or opinions of Anglia Ruskin Univers=
ity.=0D=0A=20=0D=0AAlthough measures have been taken to ensure that thi=
s e-mail and=0D=0Aattachments are free from any virus we advise that, i=
n keeping with good=0D=0Acomputing practice, the recipient should ensur=
e they are actually virus=0D=0Afree.=0D=0A=20=0D=0APlease note that thi=
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Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Edward Hagan
Subject: Re: Conscription in Ireland
In-Reply-To:
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Along the same lines: doesn't Paul Fussell (in The Great War and Modern Mem=
ory)make the case that WWI was the padres' war, i.e., chaplains were a majo=
r part of the armed forces. By the time WWII rolls around, the shrinks hav=
e begun to replace the chaplains (as in fact they still do).

I could be wrong about the origin of the padres' war: it might be Johanna B=
ourke in An Intimate History of Killing.

Ed Hagan
-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behal=
f Of Muiris Mag Ualghairg
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 5:33 PM
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Conscription in Ireland

Interesting, when I was a student in Aberystwyth I was quite friendly with
some of the theology students in the two theology colleges in the town and
they explained that the colleges were full during the second world war as
anyone studying for the ministry was exempt from military service.

If it isn't anything to do with avoiding military service, could it be that
they needed the priests to take the place of ones serving as chaplains in
the army? I would guess that there must have been quite a number of priests
who were serving in France.

Muiris

On 12 April 2010 19:58, Patrick Maume wrote:

> from; Patrick Maume
> One detail that might or might not be worth following up is that the 1918
> Maynooth ordination class were ordained some months earlier than normal
> because of the conscription crisis. I can think of three possible
> explanations, not mutually incompatible 91) ordained priests may have bee=
n
> exempt from conscription whereas clerical students were not (I am not sur=
e
> if this was actually the case0 (b) if they were conscripted before
> finishing
> their studiees and being ordained they might face difficulties in resumin=
g
> them afterwards (3) they might evade conscription more easily if ordained
> and sent back to their home districts than if they were all together in t=
he
> seminary.
> Best wishes,
> Patrick
>
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Matthew Barlow >wrote:
>
> > ah, funny you should respond to this, i was just about to ask you for
> that
> > chapter, though i think i may actually have it somewhere on my macbook.
> > hope all is well.
> > cheers,
> > m.
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, April 06, 2010, at 09:23AM, "Simon Jolivet" > seamus78[at]HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > >Hi Matthew,
> > >Some of these sources might contain some interesting bits on
> conscription
> > in Ireland, especially Traver's:
> > >
> > >- Fitzpatrick, David, Politics and Irish Life,
> > >1913-1921, (Cork, 1998), 324 p.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >- Horne, John, ed. Our War. Ireland and the Great War, (Dublin,
> > >2008), 319 p.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >- Laffan, Michael, The Partition of Ireland 1911-1925 (Dundalk,
> > >Dundalgan Press, 1983), 138
> > >p.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >- Travers, Pauric, =ABThe Priest in Politics: the Case
> > >of Conscription=BB, in Oliver MacDonagh, W.F. Mandle et Pauric Travers=
,
> > eds., Irish Culture and Nationalism, 1750-1950,
> > >(Basingstoke, The Basingstoke Press, 1983), p. 161-81.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >- Ward, Alan J, =ABLloyd
> > >George and the 1918 Irish Conscription Crisis=BB, The Historical Journ=
al,
> > vol. XVII (1974), p. 107-29.
> > >
> > >
> > >There's also a chapter devoted to the Qu=E9bec and Irish
> > >crises of 1917-1918 in the following thesis ;)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >- S. Jolivet, =ABLes deux
> > >questions irlandaises du Qu=E9bec, 1898-1921 : des consid=E9rations
> > >canadiennes-fran=E7aises et irlando-catholiques=BB, th=E8se de doctora=
t,
> > Universit=E9 Concordia
> > >(Montr=E9al, 2008), 397 p.
> > >
> > >
> > >Best,
> > >
> > >Simon
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 11:46:56 -0400
> > >> From: matthew.barlow[at]MAC.COM
> > >> Subject: [IR-D] Conscription in Ireland
> > >> To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> > >>
> > >> > Hi,
> > >> > I have a student who is interested in writing a paper comparing th=
e
> > experiences of Qu=E9bec and Ireland surrounding conscription in World W=
ar
> I.
> > While there is plenty of work on this in the Qu=E9bec context, I am
> > unfamiliar with the Irish sources, and he has been unable to find much
> > himself in the Irish historiography; most of what he's found has been
> from
> > English sources dealing Lloyd George's gambit, tying conscription to Ho=
me
> > Rule. Does anyone have any suggestions?
> > >> > Many thanks,
> > >> > Matthew Barlow
> > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
> > >Messenger sur votre t=E9l=E9phone =3D MI sur la route
> > >http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9724474
> > >
> >
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "Morgan, Tony"
Subject: Re: Irish Pirates
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID:

The plot thickens - as they are casting Billy Connolly for a new film of
Treasure Island to be produced by an Edinburgh-based company...
=20
Tony

________________________________

From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List on behalf of Walter, Bronwen
Sent: Mon 4/12/2010 4:28 PM
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Irish Pirates



Dear David

I was also surprised to hear the Irish accent this week. Perhaps you =
should
write to John le Carre and ask why he did this. People do reply =
sometimes,
and we would like to know!

All the best

Bronwen




Professor Bronwen Walter
Humanities and Social Studies Department
Anglia Ruskin University
East Road
Cambridge
CB1 1PT

tel: 01223 363271 ex 2179


-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On =
Behalf
Of Patrick O'Sullivan
Sent: 12 April 2010 16:01
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Irish Pirates

Thinking that I ought to consider the possibility that David Rose had =
erred
- What? No! What? - I listened to the John Le Carr=E9 reading on the =
BBC web
site. Was Le Carr=E9 maybe trying an English West Country or Bristol =
accent,
with the rolled RRRs - in the manner of actor Robert Newton's defining
performance? But it is an Irish accent that Le Carr=E9 is offering - I =
suppose
it does help distinguish the character in sound, and it does suit =
Silver's
rollicking way of speaking.

The words Irish and Ireland are not in the text of Treasure Island, and
Silver is always presented as an Englishman - whether in his cover =
story,
served under Admiral Hawke, or his back story, Flint's quartermaster.

P.O'S.

-----Original Message-----
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [mailto:IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On =
Behalf
Of kdejong01
Sent: 12 April 2010 13:22
To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [IR-D] Irish Pirates

Hello David,

As someone who is looking at the Irish in Jamaica in the 17th Century I =
have
to say that this is probably very unlikely. Few Irish (as I found) =
joined the
bands of privateers, preferring to settle instead as small planters or =
work
in service (either though indenture or paid). Those who took to the seas
preferred the supply trade of bulk foods and cloths. The fictional =
character
of the 'stereotypical pirate' Long John Silver was probably more based =
on
those seafaring English coming from ports like Bristol, then from Cork =
or
Kinsale.

Karst
________________________________________
From: The Irish Diaspora Studies List [IR-D[at]jiscmail.ac.uk] On Behalf Of =
THE
OSCHOLARS [oscholars[at]gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:31 PM
To: IR-D[at]jiscmail.ac.uk
Subject: [IR-D] Irish Pirates

Has anyone ever suggested that Long John Silver was Irish ? John Le =
Carr=E9
makes him so in reading Treasure Island on BBC Radio 4.

David
www.oscholars.com
--
Email has been scanned for viruses by Altman Technologies' email =
management
service - www.altman.co.uk/emailsystems
--
EMERGING EXCELLENCE: In the Research Assessment Exercise (RAE) 2008, =
more
than 30% of our submissions were rated as 'Internationally Excellent' or
'World-leading'. Among the academic disciplines now rated =
'World-leading' are
Allied Health Professions & Studies; Art & Design; English Language &
Literature; Geography & Environmental Studies; History; Music; =
Psychology;
and Social Work & Social Policy & Administration. Visit =
www.anglia.ac.uk/rae
for more information.



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Any opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not
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Email has been scanned for viruses by Altman Technologies' email =
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www.altman.co.uk/emailsystems=20

=
--=20=0D=0AEMERGING EXCELLENCE: In the Research Assessment Exercise (RA=
E) 2008, more than 30% of our submissions were rated as 'Internationall=
y Excellent' or 'World-leading'. Among the academic disciplines now rat=
ed 'World-leading' are Allied Health Professions & Studies; Art & Desig=
n; English Language & Literature; Geography & Environmental Studies; Hi=
story; Music; Psychology; and Social Work & Social Policy & Administrat=
ion. Visit www.anglia.ac.uk/rae for more information.=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=
=0D=0AThis e-mail and any attachments are intended for the above named=0D=
=0Arecipient(s)only and may be privileged. If they have come to you in=0D=
=0Aerror you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or sh=
ow=0D=0Athem to anyone please reply to this e-mail to highlight the err=
or and=0D=0Athen immediately delete the e-mail from your system.=0D=0A=20=
=0D=0AAny opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not=0D=
=0Anecessarily represent the views or opinions of Anglia Ruskin Univers=
ity.=0D=0A=20=0D=0AAlthough measures have been taken to ensure that thi=
s e-mail and=0D=0Aattachments are free from any virus we advise that, i=
n keeping with good=0D=0Acomputing practice, the recipient should ensur=
e they are actually virus=0D=0Afree.=0D=0A=20=0D=0APlease note that thi=
s message has been sent over public networks which may=0D=0Anot be a 10=
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Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick Maume
Subject: Re: Conscription in Ireland
In-Reply-To:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID:

from; Patrick Maume
One detail that might or might not be worth following up is that the 1918
Maynooth ordination class were ordained some months earlier than normal
because of the conscription crisis. I can think of three possible
explanations, not mutually incompatible 91) ordained priests may have been
exempt from conscription whereas clerical students were not (I am not sure
if this was actually the case0 (b) if they were conscripted before finishin=
g
their studiees and being ordained they might face difficulties in resuming
them afterwards (3) they might evade conscription more easily if ordained
and sent back to their home districts than if they were all together in the
seminary.
Best wishes,
Patrick

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Matthew Barlow wrot=
e:

> ah, funny you should respond to this, i was just about to ask you for tha=
t
> chapter, though i think i may actually have it somewhere on my macbook.
> hope all is well.
> cheers,
> m.
>
>
> On Tuesday, April 06, 2010, at 09:23AM, "Simon Jolivet" seamus78[at]HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >Hi Matthew,
> >Some of these sources might contain some interesting bits on conscriptio=
n
> in Ireland, especially Traver's:
> >
> >- Fitzpatrick, David, Politics and Irish Life,
> >1913-1921, (Cork, 1998), 324 p.
> >
> >
> >
> >- Horne, John, ed. Our War. Ireland and the Great War, (Dublin,
> >2008), 319 p.
> >
> >
> >
> >- Laffan, Michael, The Partition of Ireland 1911-1925 (Dundalk,
> >Dundalgan Press, 1983), 138
> >p.
> >
> >
> >
> >- Travers, Pauric, =ABThe Priest in Politics: the Case
> >of Conscription=BB, in Oliver MacDonagh, W.F. Mandle et Pauric Travers,
> eds., Irish Culture and Nationalism, 1750-1950,
> >(Basingstoke, The Basingstoke Press, 1983), p. 161-81.
> >
> >
> >
> >- Ward, Alan J, =ABLloyd
> >George and the 1918 Irish Conscription Crisis=BB, The Historical Journal=
,
> vol. XVII (1974), p. 107-29.
> >
> >
> >There's also a chapter devoted to the Qu=E9bec and Irish
> >crises of 1917-1918 in the following thesis ;)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >- S. Jolivet, =ABLes deux
> >questions irlandaises du Qu=E9bec, 1898-1921 : des consid=E9rations
> >canadiennes-fran=E7aises et irlando-catholiques=BB, th=E8se de doctorat,
> Universit=E9 Concordia
> >(Montr=E9al, 2008), 397 p.
> >
> >
> >Best,
> >
> >Simon
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 11:46:56 -0400
> >> From: matthew.barlow[at]MAC.COM
> >> Subject: [IR-D] Conscription in Ireland
> >> To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> >>
> >> > Hi,
> >> > I have a student who is interested in writing a paper comparing the
> experiences of Qu=E9bec and Ireland surrounding conscription in World War=
I.
> While there is plenty of work on this in the Qu=E9bec context, I am
> unfamiliar with the Irish sources, and he has been unable to find much
> himself in the Irish historiography; most of what he's found has been fro=
m
> English sources dealing Lloyd George's gambit, tying conscription to Home
> Rule. Does anyone have any suggestions?
> >> > Many thanks,
> >> > Matthew Barlow
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Messenger sur votre t=E9l=E9phone =3D MI sur la route
> >http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9724474
> >
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Irish Pirates
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David Rose has politely reminded me that Silver had a henchman called
O'Brien, killed in a brawl with Israel Hands.

Described by Hands as 'a rank Irelander'...

My apologies.

Paddy O'Sullivan

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Muiris Mag Ualghairg
Subject: Re: Conscription in Ireland
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Interesting, when I was a student in Aberystwyth I was quite friendly with
some of the theology students in the two theology colleges in the town and
they explained that the colleges were full during the second world war as
anyone studying for the ministry was exempt from military service.

If it isn't anything to do with avoiding military service, could it be that
they needed the priests to take the place of ones serving as chaplains in
the army? I would guess that there must have been quite a number of priests
who were serving in France.

Muiris

On 12 April 2010 19:58, Patrick Maume wrote:

> from; Patrick Maume
> One detail that might or might not be worth following up is that the 1918
> Maynooth ordination class were ordained some months earlier than normal
> because of the conscription crisis. I can think of three possible
> explanations, not mutually incompatible 91) ordained priests may have bee=
n
> exempt from conscription whereas clerical students were not (I am not sur=
e
> if this was actually the case0 (b) if they were conscripted before
> finishing
> their studiees and being ordained they might face difficulties in resumin=
g
> them afterwards (3) they might evade conscription more easily if ordained
> and sent back to their home districts than if they were all together in t=
he
> seminary.
> Best wishes,
> Patrick
>
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Matthew Barlow >wrote:
>
> > ah, funny you should respond to this, i was just about to ask you for
> that
> > chapter, though i think i may actually have it somewhere on my macbook.
> > hope all is well.
> > cheers,
> > m.
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, April 06, 2010, at 09:23AM, "Simon Jolivet" > seamus78[at]HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > >Hi Matthew,
> > >Some of these sources might contain some interesting bits on
> conscription
> > in Ireland, especially Traver's:
> > >
> > >- Fitzpatrick, David, Politics and Irish Life,
> > >1913-1921, (Cork, 1998), 324 p.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >- Horne, John, ed. Our War. Ireland and the Great War, (Dublin,
> > >2008), 319 p.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >- Laffan, Michael, The Partition of Ireland 1911-1925 (Dundalk,
> > >Dundalgan Press, 1983), 138
> > >p.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >- Travers, Pauric, =ABThe Priest in Politics: the Case
> > >of Conscription=BB, in Oliver MacDonagh, W.F. Mandle et Pauric Travers=
,
> > eds., Irish Culture and Nationalism, 1750-1950,
> > >(Basingstoke, The Basingstoke Press, 1983), p. 161-81.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >- Ward, Alan J, =ABLloyd
> > >George and the 1918 Irish Conscription Crisis=BB, The Historical Journ=
al,
> > vol. XVII (1974), p. 107-29.
> > >
> > >
> > >There's also a chapter devoted to the Qu=E9bec and Irish
> > >crises of 1917-1918 in the following thesis ;)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >- S. Jolivet, =ABLes deux
> > >questions irlandaises du Qu=E9bec, 1898-1921 : des consid=E9rations
> > >canadiennes-fran=E7aises et irlando-catholiques=BB, th=E8se de doctora=
t,
> > Universit=E9 Concordia
> > >(Montr=E9al, 2008), 397 p.
> > >
> > >
> > >Best,
> > >
> > >Simon
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 11:46:56 -0400
> > >> From: matthew.barlow[at]MAC.COM
> > >> Subject: [IR-D] Conscription in Ireland
> > >> To: IR-D[at]JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> > >>
> > >> > Hi,
> > >> > I have a student who is interested in writing a paper comparing th=
e
> > experiences of Qu=E9bec and Ireland surrounding conscription in World W=
ar
> I.
> > While there is plenty of work on this in the Qu=E9bec context, I am
> > unfamiliar with the Irish sources, and he has been unable to find much
> > himself in the Irish historiography; most of what he's found has been
> from
> > English sources dealing Lloyd George's gambit, tying conscription to Ho=
me
> > Rule. Does anyone have any suggestions?
> > >> > Many thanks,
> > >> > Matthew Barlow
> > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
> > >Messenger sur votre t=E9l=E9phone =3D MI sur la route
> > >http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9724474
> > >
> >
>

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Article, Believing in Flannery O'Connor
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Our attention has been drawn to the following item...

Believing in Flannery O'Connor
March 2009
Terry Teachout

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewArticle.cfm?id=15085



Believing in Flannery O'Connor

TERRY TEACHOUT
March 2009

In 1952, the landscape of American fiction was dominated by a group of
literary celebrities who had published their first novels after or near the
end of World War II. James Baldwin, Saul Bellow, Truman Capote, Ralph
Ellison, Norman Mailer, J.D. Salinger, Gore Vidal: these were the
up-and-comers about whom everyone was talking in the days when serious
fiction still mattered to the educated public, the ones who were expected to
do great things.

But while all of them are remembered today, none save Bellow came anywhere
near living up to his promise. And though the most consequential American
book of 1952 was undoubtedly Ellison's Invisible Man, the year's most
significant literary debut turns out in retrospect to have been a slender,
poorly reviewed novel about a half-crazed itinerant evangelist who preached
the gospel of the Church Without Christ, a book whose all-but-unknown author
was a young woman whose home was not New York but a small town in rural
Georgia.

It took a number of years for Flannery O'Connor's Wise Blood to be
recognized as a modern classic, but once recognition came, it was decisive.
Today O'Connor, who died in 1964 at the age of 39, is generally acknowledged
as one of the foremost American fiction writers of the 20th century. Not
only has she emerged as a key figure in postwar American letters; she is by
far the most critically acclaimed of the many Catholic writers who came to
prominence in this country after World War II, as well as one of the most
widely read novelists, short-story writers, or poets to have been born in
the American South. As Brad Gooch points out in Flannery: A Life of Flannery
O'Connor1 the first full-length biography of O'Connor, the Library of
America's 1988 volume of her collected works "outsold [William] Faulkner's,
published three years earlier."2

That an author who published only two short novels and twenty stories (not
counting student work) in her lifetime should now be the subject of such
posthumous acclaim is the stuff reevaluations are made of. Might some of the
attention now being paid to O'Connor and her modest oeuvre arise from the
fact that she died so young? Or could it be that certain of her admirers are
going out of their way to praise a writer who-unlike the once-big literary
guns of the 50's-was a woman?

Tempting though such mean-spirited speculation may be, it is misguided.
O'Connor's laconic, formidably tough-minded novels and stories are fully as
good as their reputation, and vastly better than anything published by
Baldwin, Capote, Mailer, Salinger, or Vidal. After she died, Thomas Merton
wrote that "when I read Flannery O'Connor, I do not think of Hemingway, or
Katherine Anne Porter, or Sartre, but rather of someone like Sophocles."
Though O'Connor herself would surely have scoffed at such praise, she is
among a bare handful of American writers, modern or otherwise, of whom such
a thing might plausibly be said.

But her reputation rests in part on a persistent misunderstanding. Unlike
most of the other major American novelists of the 20th century, O'Connor
wrote not as a more or less secular humanist but as a believer, a rigorously
orthodox Roman Catholic. Her fiction was permeated with religious language
and symbolism, and its underlying intent was in many cases specifically
spiritual. Yet most of O'Connor's early critics failed to grasp her
intentions, and even now many younger readers are ignorant of the true
meaning of her work.

FULL TEXT AT

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewArticle.cfm?id=15085

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "Thomas J. Archdeacon"
Subject: Re: Probe as more pupils shun Irish
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The debate over mandatory instruction in Irish for those seeking advanced
education seems to include several questions that are at least partly
separable from one another.

1. How real is the danger that the Irish language would become extinct,
either in the broader consciousness of the population or in fact, without
reinforcement of mandatory education in it?

2. To what extent is prevention of the extinction of the Irish language
essential to maintenance of a distinctive Irish identity?

3. Does the teaching of Irish detract from the teaching of other subjects
that would prove more beneficial to the development of the Irish economy or
to the personal fulfillment of its people?

4. Do those who study Irish earn worse grades due to taking that language
than students taking substitute languages or other courses?

5. Is the Irish language, because of syntax, spelling, or other inherent
features more prone than other languages to activate underlying learning
disabilities?

6. To what extent are claims of learning disabilities bogus excuses to
escape learning Irish?

7. With what level of confidence can psychologists -- and any others
entrusted with certifying them -- distinguish actual learning disabilities
related to any subject from causes of poor performance less likely to merit
sympathy and accommodation?

Tom

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From: Patrick O'Sullivan
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A number of Irish newspapers and commentators have picked up this
information.

Sample below...

P.O'S.

Probe as more pupils shun Irish

Half of students exempted due to learning disability study other languages


By Katherine Donnelly
Wednesday April 14 2010
EDUCATION Minister Mary Coughlan is to examine whether second-level students
who do not study Irish should be allowed to learn another language.

Some students who seek exemptions from Irish may only do so to avoid what
they regard as a difficult or useless subject, principals have claimed.

More than half of this year's Leaving Certificate candidates not sitting
Irish on learning disability grounds will, however, take an exam in a modern
European language.

There has been a growing trend of students released from the obligation of
studying the national language on the basis of learning disabilities such as
dyslexia.

Clive Byrne, director of the second-level National Association of Principals
and Deputy Principals (NAPD) said he had no problem if students were exempt
from Irish on the basis of a psychologist's report.

"My difficulty is that they are well able to study French, German or
Italian," he said.

"It is an issue where a number of students or parents are using the system
because Irish is seen as a subject that is not useful, or as a difficult one
in which to achieve a higher grade."

The growth in exemptions is causing concern in the Department of Education,
which has been conducting a review of the issue, including whether students
not taking Irish should be restricted from taking another language.

In the coming months, the minister will consider whether this policy should
be changed, a spokesperson said.

The policy review has implications for entry to third-level, particularly
the NUI colleges of UCD, UCC, NUI Galway and NUI Maynooth, where students
are required to have a pass grade in Irish, and for some courses, a third
language.

The NUI is concerned that no advantage would be given to a student who has
an exemption in Irish on learning disability grounds -- yet who is capable
of learning a foreign language.

Candidates

According to provisional figures released to RTE, 2,297 Leaving Certificate
candidates -- out of an estimated total of 55,455 -- will not sit Irish due
to learning disabilities, but 1,326 of those same students have registered
to sit an exam in French, Spanish or German.

Last year, 2,119 Leaving Certificate candidates had an exemption in Irish,
1,210 of whom did another European language. In 2008, 1,772 candidates had
an exemption, and 1,044 of those sat an exam in another European language.

Across the entire second-level system, the total number of students with
exemptions in Irish rose from around 20,000 in 2005/06 to the present figure
of around 30,000.

There are 39 schools where 10 or more students have an exemption.

It is compulsory to study the Irish language at secondary-school level.

Pupils who can seek exemption also include those who move to Ireland from
abroad and whose first language is not English.

Pupils with special educational needs and those whose primary education up
to 11 years was received outside the State --or who are being re-enrolled
after a period of at least three years abroad -- may also seek not to study
Irish.

It is then up to the school authorities to decide whether individual
students are eligible.

Exemptions under the category of learning disabilities also require an
assessment by a qualified psychologist.

- Katherine Donnelly

Irish Independent

SOURCE
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/probe-as-more-pupils-shun-irish-2136
421.html

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Cuts, tax and emigration the harshest medicine
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There has been much comment within Ireland on the latest Economic and Social
Research Institute report.

It is interesting that we are also seing comment from the Irish outside
Ireland.

Two examples, below...

P.O'S.

Cuts, tax and emigration the harshest medicine

By Emmet Oliver
Tuesday April 13 2010
IT'S often been said that the best cure for poverty and unemployment is a
job. But the reality of the modern Irish economy is that the best cure is
emigration.

The Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) said yesterday that
100,000 people would leave Ireland this year and next, keeping a lid on
already high unemployment and helping to relieve some of the budgetary
pressures on the Government.

The loss of 100,000 mainly young people is hardly something to celebrate,
but the reality is that without this safety valve the Irish economy would be
mired in levels of unemployment last witnessed in the 1980s.

The ESRI calculated yesterday that if the amount of people in the labour
market had not fallen over the last year via emigration, the rate of
unemployment would be about 16pc not the current 13.4pc.

Ireland is shipping out its young people to countries like Canada, the US,
Australia and the UK, thereby easing the pressure on the economy they are
leaving behind.

Those departing are also easing the pressure on the Government in lower
welfare costs and less political opposition.

Full text at
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/emmet-oliver-cuts-tax-and-emigrat
ion-the-harshest-medicine-2135321.html



Emigration hailed as cure for Irish economy even as U.S. remains closed for
immigration

A staggering 100,000 people will leave Ireland between this year and next
year according to the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI).

The ESRI says this exodus is the biggest element in helping keep the jobless
figures down.

But where on earth is everyone going?

Why America of course. Even though the U.S. has been pretty much closed to
Irish people since the 1965 Immigration Act.

But the ESRI doesn't care about such niceties of course.

As long as Ireland's fed-up and jobless keep streaming for the exits, the
people in charge can keep pretending it's not happening.

They can pretend the young Irish are doing just fine wherever they land,
visa or no visa.

Been here before lads.

I was one of the hundreds of thousands who headed for the exits in 1985 when
official Ireland turned a blind eye to our plight.

Thousands of young Irish ended up in the big cities of America where they
soon found work, but they couldn't get visas.

And it would have remained so if two congressmen - Brian Donnelly and
particularly Bruce Morrison - hadn't put their shoulders to the wheel and
helped chart a new legal path for the Irish.

Americans helping the Irish.

The ESRI calculates that without the large-scale emigration taking place
now, the Irish jobless rate would be about 16 percent not the current 13.4
percent.

And as the Irish Independent pointed out today, "those departing are also
easing the pressure on the Government in lower welfare costs and less
political opposition."

Ironic isn't it.

Ireland's young emigrants can sink or swim overseas even though they're
helping solve the problem in Ireland.

We desperately need a new Bruce Morrison or Brian Donnelly in Congress now.

SOURCE
http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/kellys_corner/emigration-hailed-as-cu
re-for-irish-economy-even-as-us-remains-closed-for-immigration-90747124.html

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Anthony Mcnicholas
Subject: Re: Probe as more pupils shun Irish
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I have finally taken the plunge after years of good intentions and am
attending irish classes at the Camden Irish centre, along with one of my
daughters. In my limited experience of the language dyslexia would not
appear to be an obstacle to learning Irish. It might even be an advantage.
anthony
--
Dr Anthony McNicholas
Director of the PhD Programme
Communication and Media Research Institute
University of Westminster
Watford Road
Harrow
HA1 3TP
Room A5.10
Tel. 0044 (0)20 7911 5000 x4603
Editor of Interactions: Studies in Communication and Culture





On 14/04/2010 09:58, "Paddy O'Sullivan" wrote:

> A number of Irish newspapers and commentators have picked up this
> information.
>
> Sample below...
>
> P.O'S.
>
> Probe as more pupils shun Irish
>
> Half of students exempted due to learning disability study other languages
>
>
> By Katherine Donnelly
> Wednesday April 14 2010
> EDUCATION Minister Mary Coughlan is to examine whether second-level students
> who do not study Irish should be allowed to learn another language.
>
> Some students who seek exemptions from Irish may only do so to avoid what
> they regard as a difficult or useless subject, principals have claimed.
>
> More than half of this year's Leaving Certificate candidates not sitting
> Irish on learning disability grounds will, however, take an exam in a modern
> European language.
>
> There has been a growing trend of students released from the obligation of
> studying the national language on the basis of learning disabilities such as
> dyslexia.
>
> Clive Byrne, director of the second-level National Association of Principals
> and Deputy Principals (NAPD) said he had no problem if students were exempt
> from Irish on the basis of a psychologist's report.
>
> "My difficulty is that they are well able to study French, German or
> Italian," he said.
>
> "It is an issue where a number of students or parents are using the system
> because Irish is seen as a subject that is not useful, or as a difficult one
> in which to achieve a higher grade."
>
> The growth in exemptions is causing concern in the Department of Education,
> which has been conducting a review of the issue, including whether students
> not taking Irish should be restricted from taking another language.
>
> In the coming months, the minister will consider whether this policy should
> be changed, a spokesperson said.
>
> The policy review has implications for entry to third-level, particularly
> the NUI colleges of UCD, UCC, NUI Galway and NUI Maynooth, where students
> are required to have a pass grade in Irish, and for some courses, a third
> language.
>
> The NUI is concerned that no advantage would be given to a student who has
> an exemption in Irish on learning disability grounds -- yet who is capable
> of learning a foreign language.
>
> Candidates
>
> According to provisional figures released to RTE, 2,297 Leaving Certificate
> candidates -- out of an estimated total of 55,455 -- will not sit Irish due
> to learning disabilities, but 1,326 of those same students have registered
> to sit an exam in French, Spanish or German.
>
> Last year, 2,119 Leaving Certificate candidates had an exemption in Irish,
> 1,210 of whom did another European language. In 2008, 1,772 candidates had
> an exemption, and 1,044 of those sat an exam in another European language.
>
> Across the entire second-level system, the total number of students with
> exemptions in Irish rose from around 20,000 in 2005/06 to the present figure
> of around 30,000.
>
> There are 39 schools where 10 or more students have an exemption.
>
> It is compulsory to study the Irish language at secondary-school level.
>
> Pupils who can seek exemption also include those who move to Ireland from
> abroad and whose first language is not English.
>
> Pupils with special educational needs and those whose primary education up
> to 11 years was received outside the State --or who are being re-enrolled
> after a period of at least three years abroad -- may also seek not to study
> Irish.
>
> It is then up to the school authorities to decide whether individual
> students are eligible.
>
> Exemptions under the category of learning disabilities also require an
> assessment by a qualified psychologist.
>
> - Katherine Donnelly
>
> Irish Independent
>
> SOURCE
> http://www.independent.ie/national-news/probe-as-more-pupils-shun-irish-2136
> 421.html


--
The University of Westminster is a charity and a company limited by
guarantee. Registration number: 977818 England. Registered Office:
309 Regent Street, London W1B 2UW, UK.

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Ultan Cowley
Subject: Compulsory Irish
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Its clear from the stats. quoted in this article that many young people seek exemptions from studying Irish, not because they are unable to learn a language other than their mother toungue, but because they find Irish too difficult - or otherwise unattractive, and look for a way out. There's nothing new about that, is there? I had little difficulty with it in school but two of my three children suffered agonies over it at second level.

However, instead of abolishing the ridiculous obligation to pass Irish as a prequisite to third level access, the department now proposes to ban those granted exemptions from taking another language in its stead. Don't adopt a constructive approach - punish people instead! Yet again, an Irish solution to an Irish problem.

To quote Donal MacAuligh's ironic closing sentence in Dialann Deorai: 'We're a great people, surely'.

Ultan Cowley

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "Murray, Edmundo"
Subject: Re: Research leads for nineteenth century Irish to India then
Australia?
In-Reply-To:
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Las Palmas del Chaco Austral was an agricultural and industrial settlement =
in north-east Argentina that started in the mid-1880s by Belfast-born broth=
ers Richard and Charles Hardy. Many Irish-born colonists settled in Las Pal=
mas, some of them coming from military and civil service in India. In 1897 =
they imported polo ponies from Jaipur and a club was established.
Edmundo Murray

On 4/14/10 3:17 AM, "Dymphna Lonergan" w=
rote:

Irish in India seems to be the subject here. I know that some who served
in the British Army in India sold their commissions and emigrated to
South Australia and that the Indian Civil Service was another avenue of
pursuit for educated Anglo-Irish in the eighteenth century. It's an
interesting idea that India might have been a first port of emigration
for some Irish by way of military service or civil service. How many?
How long did they stay? Did they return to Ireland in the main or go on
to other colonies? I don't have any answers.

jame0005[at]FLINDERS.EDU.AU wrote:
> I'm just starting research which emerged from a MA into Irish-born who mi=
grated
> to Australia/South Australia (this formed the basis of my previous resear=
ch)
> via India in the nineteenth century. Some were in the East India Company,
> others in the British Army. I'm interested in suggestions about processes
> involved in both leaving Ireland and India and would be grateful for any
> support,
> Stephanie James
>

--

Le gach dea ghu=ED







*Dr Dymphna Lonergan*

*Department of English, Creative Writing and Australian Studies*

* *

Topic Convener Professional English; Professional English for Teachers;
Professional English for Medical Scientists (ENGL1001/A; ENGL1012;
ENGL1013);

Professional Writing (ENGL2007/ PROF2101); Professional Writing for
Teams (PROF8000); The Story of Australian English (ENGL7214)



Director of Studies English, Creative Writing and Australian Studies;
Professional Studies Minor



Research interests: Irish settlement in South Australia; Irish language
in Australia; Placenames Australia (Irish project)

Publication: /Sounds Irish: The Irish language in Australia
/http://www.lythrumpress.com.au










________________________________
Please consider the environment before printing this email or its attachmen=
t(s). Please note that this message may contain confidential information. I=
f you have received this message in error, please notify me and then delete=
it from your system.

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Dymphna Lonergan
Subject: Re: Research leads for nineteenth century Irish to India then
Australia?
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Irish in India seems to be the subject here. I know that some who served=20
in the British Army in India sold their commissions and emigrated to=20
South Australia and that the Indian Civil Service was another avenue of=20
pursuit for educated Anglo-Irish in the eighteenth century. It's an=20
interesting idea that India might have been a first port of emigration=20
for some Irish by way of military service or civil service. How many?=20
How long did they stay? Did they return to Ireland in the main or go on=20
to other colonies? I don't have any answers.

jame0005[at]FLINDERS.EDU.AU wrote:
> I'm just starting research which emerged from a MA into Irish-born who =
migrated
> to Australia/South Australia (this formed the basis of my previous rese=
arch)
> via India in the nineteenth century. Some were in the East India Compan=
y,
> others in the British Army. I'm interested in suggestions about process=
es
> involved in both leaving Ireland and India and would be grateful for an=
y
> support,
> Stephanie James
> =20

--=20

Le gach dea ghu=ED

=20

=20

=20

*Dr Dymphna Lonergan*

*Department of English, Creative Writing and Australian Studies*

* *

Topic Convener Professional English; Professional English for Teachers;=20
Professional English for Medical Scientists (ENGL1001/A; ENGL1012;=20
ENGL1013);

Professional Writing (ENGL2007/ PROF2101); Professional Writing for=20
Teams (PROF8000); The Story of Australian English (ENGL7214)

=20

Director of Studies English, Creative Writing and Australian Studies;=20
Professional Studies Minor

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Research interests: Irish settlement in South Australia; Irish language=20
in Australia; Placenames Australia (Irish project)

Publication: /Sounds Irish: The Irish language in Australia=20
/http://www.lythrumpress.com.au

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Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: "MacEinri, Piaras"
Subject: Emigration returning
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Yesterday the ESRI published its quarterly Economic Commentary
(http://www.esri.ie).=20

One of its predictions is that 100,000 persons will leave Ireland during
the period April 2009-March 2011. Not all, perhaps not even a majority,
of these departures will be Irish people.

I discussed this on radio with evening talkshow presenter George Hook -
the interview can be heard at
http://migration.ucc.ie/MacEinriRightHook.mp3=20

Comments welcome!

Piaras

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Book Award for David Wilson, Thomas D'Arcy McGee,
Volume 1: Passion, Reason, and Politics, 1825-1857
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Our sincere congratulations to David Wilson on receiving this deserved
award.

P.O'S.

TORONTO, March 31 -- The 2010 Raymond Klibansky award for best
English-language work in the humanities has been awarded to David =
Wilson,
professor of History and Celtic Studies at the University of Toronto, =
for
Thomas D'Arcy McGee, Volume 1: Passion, Reason, and Politics, 1825-1857,
published by McGill-Queen's University Press. Wilson explores the life =
of
Thomas D'Arcy McGee, exposing the reader to the complex and turbulent =
times
that shaped McGee's early political life. This is a landmark work on a
Canadian icon.=A0 Professor Wilson received the award at a ceremony in =
Ottawa
on March 27.

SOURCE
http://www.utoronto.ca/stmikes/news/stories/10_0401_davidwilson.html

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Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Patrick O'Sullivan
Subject: Compulsory Irish
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Subject: RE: [IR-D] Compulsory Irish
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 16:10:10 +0100
From: "MacEinri, Piaras"

I hesitate to put my toe into this particular, potentially =
shark-infested,
water... The question of Irish and the status and teaching of Irish is =
still
a delicate one in this country. I think a number of observations could =
be
made.

First, the State has manifestly failed in its language restoration =
policy.
And the most ignominious aspect of that failure was its schools policy. =
It
was appallingly badly taught for decades, using antediluvian approaches,
unattractive and irrelevant texts and badly-trained teachers.=20

Second, the out-of-date pedagogy, compared to modern language teaching =
in
other languages, was compounded by the extreme conservatism of Irish
language university departments (largely unchanged to this day), the
reactionary politics of much of the lobby (OK, there were also people =
like
M=E1irt=EDn =D3 Cadhain, but not many) and the general sense that it was =
being
shoved down people's throats whether they wanted it or not. Above all, =
the
sheer hypocrisy of the political and governing classes meant that Irish =
was
only used tokenistically - the 'c=FApla focail' or (desultory) few words =
- in
public places.=20

Thirdly, the Catholic Church and most of the opinion-forming classes
abandoned Irish long before the creation of the state and Irish was not
spoken as a vernacular in any part of urban Ireland in the 20th century
except among largely private communities of enthusiasts and in some =
parts of
the civil service and educational system.=20

Fourthly, many Irish speakers, native or fluent second language, had a
snobbish and exclusionary attitude to those less skilled in speaking the
language.=20

Finally, factors such as the urban/rural divide and class divisions got =
in
the way. I went to school in a mixed middle/working class part of Dublin =
and
come from a rural background; many of my class-mates regarded the =
teachers
(unreasonably of course) as bogmen.=20

Yes, it is clear from the results referred to in the new reports that =
there
is a degree of hypocrisy in the dyslexia being claimed. But that's the =
kind
of outcome to be expected from a dysfunctional policy.=20

Irish is a moderately but not excessively difficult Indo-European =
language.
I don't think it's as difficult, say, as Russian. Of languages I know
Spanish and French are probably easier but in truth no language is =
'easy' to
learn. What is lacking here is motivation.

The debate over mandatory instruction in Irish for those seeking =
advanced
education seems to include several questions that are at least partly
separable from one another.

A few comments on Tom Archdeacon's very interesting post, which arrived =
just
as I was about to send off my own.

1. How real is the danger that the Irish language would become extinct,
either in the broader consciousness of the population or in fact, =
without
reinforcement of mandatory education in it?

Paradoxically I think the chances of survival, while slim, are better =
than
they were. Irish doesn=92t have critical mass in urban areas but there a =
much
more positive impression of the language among young people, notably =
because
of factors like TG4, the largely Irish medium television station, and
probably a certain reaction to globalised consumerism. All this, IMHO, =
in
spite of and not because of the efforts of schools.=20

2. To what extent is prevention of the extinction of the Irish language
essential to maintenance of a distinctive Irish identity?

I don=92t think there is a black and white answer to this. It is part of =
my
identity because I=92m bilingual but I=92m not going to tell someone =
they are
=91less Irish=92 because they can=92t, don=92t or won=92t tick the =
Irish language
box.=20

3. Does the teaching of Irish detract from the teaching of other =
subjects
that would prove more beneficial to the development of the Irish economy =
or
to the personal fulfillment of its people?

Long-standing sore point to some. I think the answer has to be =91not =
proven=92.
There is ample evidence, for instance, that bilingualism is a =
significant
advantage for the acquisition of subsequent third and other languages. =
We
waste far more time in school on religion.

4. Do those who study Irish earn worse grades due to taking that =
language
than students taking substitute languages or other courses?

Grades in Irish have probably dropped although there has been something =
of
an upswing in recent years. As suggested, it is often badly thought and
students are sometimes, or frequently, poorly motivated. I would feel =
that
those who are interested and well taught do as well as in any other =
subject.

5. Is the Irish language, because of syntax, spelling, or other inherent
features more prone than other languages to activate underlying learning
disabilities?

I have never seen or heard of any evidence to support this (perfectly
reasonable) question. The spelling and grammar, for instance, have been
greatly simplified. People learn languages such as Arabic and Chinese,
undoubtedly far more complex in structure or written form, in their tens =
or
hundreds of millions.

6. To what extent are claims of learning disabilities bogus excuses to
escape learning Irish?

The sharp rise in numbers in recent years is out of line with the =
general
pattern of learning disabilities (although it is also more likely that =
such
disabilities will be detected nowadays than heretofore).=20

7. With what level of confidence can psychologists -- and any others
entrusted with certifying them -- distinguish actual learning =
disabilities
related to any subject from causes of poor performance less likely to =
merit
sympathy and accommodation?

A good question! It might be interesting to look at the class profile =
and
any other distinguishing factors in the cases of those presenting such
certificates.

But in the end of the day, we need a new policy and a different =
pedagogy.
There are now more speakers of Polish and Chinese than of Irish. But =
there
is plenty of goodwill, maybe more so now that this is a multilingual
country. Those who are willing should be supported and those are not
interested should not be coerced. A good start would be to remove =
compulsory
Irish at the end of the secondary cycle and from entry requirements for
university.=20

best

Piaras

Sender: The Irish Diaspora Studies List
From: Peter Hart
Subject: Re: Compulsory Irish 2
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I recall (I think) a Myles na gCopaleen column c. 1942 (I think) talking about
language policy, basically saying to critics: I'd far rather money and time be
spent on a language than a war. That always made a lot of sense to me, and
being proud of a language and using it as a pillar of national identity makes a
lot more sense than going on about what great wars were waged in the past (I
speak as a Canadian increasingly alienated by our collective celebration of
world war one in particular).

On the other hand, has there ever been a similar case where a near-dead
language
was successfully revived? Quebec and Israel aren't really the same thing. I
doubt it has to do with teaching methods - not fundamentally. It has to do
with its fundamental/functional irrelevance in an English-speaking world where
native English is surely a huge advantage. We were taught French in a probably
similar way, to general boredom and resentment - French immersion became a
middle-class status symbol, desirable as well for perceived access to govt.
jobs. Irish is highly and widely valued as a symbol of difference and
identity, but that doesn't really require people to actually learn the stuff.
It is narrowly and deeply valued as a medium for literature and music, and to
get at historical sources, but that's a very different thing.

One comment about Catholicism - or the Church anyway - and its place as another
pillar of identity. I suspect Irishness as an internationally successful
brand, attacked to people, music, literature, beer etc., really took off in the
80s once it was thought of in those terms, and not twinned with Catholicism.
It
was only after we in Newfoundland had our pioneering clerical scandal,
destroying the influence and reputation of the church and the Christian
Brothers, that post/modern Irishness was embraced here in a non-sectarian way.
That's my hypothesis anyway.

Peter Hart